| QUOTE (Paki Gangster @ Feb 22 2004, 09:51 PM) |
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| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 22 2004, 10:00 PM) |
| I believe he unfortunately looked like that dude on the extreme right! An A-raanb! |
| QUOTE (FASAL XJ @ Feb 23 2004, 01:50 PM) |
| how can they honestly call him son of ''God'' |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 23 2004, 02:41 PM) |
| the christins htink god is some sort of a 3 IN 1 combo....(astaghfirullah) |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 23 2004, 07:57 AM) |
| Jesus was from Palestine. |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 23 2004, 02:41 PM) |
| the christins htink god is some sort of a 3 IN 1 combo....(astaghfirullah) |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 23 2004, 08:02 PM) |
| Vohee baat ho gae na kay jee I am right because my arabian allah says so? Like I said, all a bunch of stupid middle eastern rubbish! |
| QUOTE (airforcefan @ Feb 23 2004, 10:14 PM) |
| Lull yaaar ek polite request hai tuj se. Man please don't use words like "arabian allah". That is disrespectfull and will cause chaos on this forum as happened earlier. I hope your point was just to bash arguing over blind following of different assumed authorities rather than meaning an insult to Supreme Being for muslims Allah. |
| QUOTE (Nooman @ Feb 23 2004, 10:57 PM) |
| Lulldapull is correct is saying that there should be a seperation of church (Masjid) and state (Government) in Pakistan |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 23 2004, 10:59 PM) |
| Yaar besides the separation of church and state, there is absolutely no scientific evidence for any of the rituals all these harami type ppl practice or believe in! INMO yaar these motherfukkers are all the same! koi farq naheen hae in gaandoon main. They are all jahil/ un-evolved I mean aevain bus chutiapa luggya hua hae! |
| QUOTE (minx @ Feb 24 2004, 01:33 AM) |
| lull. tumharay mun ko kutta laga hua hai.. if u talk instead of barking .. it actually might make more sense. |
| QUOTE (GangsterNation @ Feb 23 2004, 11:41 PM) |
| lolz minx |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 23 2004, 08:02 PM) |
| Vohee baat ho gae na kay jee I am right because my arabian allah says so? Like I said, all a bunch of stupid middle eastern rubbish! |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 24 2004, 12:12 AM) |
| I challenge anyone here including my friend Lulldapull to show me a better way of life than Islam. God is One.....He is eternal, He os not arab or anything. He is one God. Who sent a warner for every nation in the form of prophets. Muhamamd is the seal of the prophets. Islam's message is universal and NOT arabic or english or latin. Jesus was from Palestine....the Israelites. He was Jewish (of course the true jews with the true torah, which have been exticnt 4000 years ago ) anyways.....and he came to reinforce the message of the prophets before him like MOSES, ABRAHAM, LUT. That there is no God but Allah When you buy a calucator or even a car, u get an instruction manual with it......if u folow the instruction maual ur car or calculator will work at its full efficiency. the same way, God made us...and revrealed the Quran as an instruction manual. There r things that r good for us and we dont know. Lulldapull...we have to "EVOLVE" ....but our "EVOLUTION" has to be withing the limits of what God has ordained. Salah is the pillar of Islam. |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 24 2004, 12:16 AM) |
| This duniya was NOT made as a play or a joke. There is a purpose of creation. have u ever wondered what is it??? Why do we have the sense of GOOD and BAD??? this duniya is a test. After death....ONLY UR DEEDS will save you. And all of us have to die. remember |
| QUOTE (minx @ Feb 23 2004, 11:33 PM) |
| lull. tumharay mun ko kutta laga hua hai.. if u talk instead of barking .. it actually might make more sense. |
| QUOTE |
The last I checked the universe was expanding at an astronomical rate! There were more galaxies being discoered than ever before. Even Laplace's "deterministic" approach was invalidatd by the above observation by edwin hubble about 75 years ago. Dude there is simply no way of knowing where we are headed into this literally infinite universe!, and to put your chutiappay ka faith into some camel jockey philosophy? ...Comeon dude, use your brain. Even Science cannot answer that question yet. |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 24 2004, 08:24 AM) |
| Any proof of the above besides what some camel jockeys have been babblin for the last 2000 years? Dude please let it go! Your claims are nothing but blind faith. You belong to a wicked cult whose time is unfortunately up! |
| QUOTE (airforcefan @ Feb 24 2004, 09:45 AM) |
| hey tauseef, nice to see that verse. can you provide for all of us a word to word translation of that verse into english ? |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 24 2004, 09:15 PM) |
| Lulldapull....what about JAHIL? you tell me ur scientists have just discovered that the universe is expanding...and i showed u that Allah stated THAT very fact in the Quran some 1400 years ago. |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 24 2004, 08:26 AM) |
| Aur aap kay moon ko billa? Stupid islamic minx. |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 24 2004, 09:37 PM) |
| Lulldapull...u know what is HAQ. prove to me that any other way of life has more HAQ in it than Islam. then we will talk more. BECAUSE i want to hear ur point of views on this DUNIYA and purpose of creation. otherwise this conversation is getting monotonous |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 24 2004, 10:26 AM) |
| Aur aap kay moon ko billa? Stupid islamic minx. |
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| To answer your pappu question basically Haq or Faq ...Doesn't come from any where! It is just innate or learned behaviour from evolution |
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| bTW if we want to start a jahil vs Athiest debate, hell I am all for it! But ain't got the time, or the urge to destroy your arabian or jewish neanderthal mythology into stupid shreds of rubbish! |
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| Here's a famous quote from martin Luther King Jr: "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." [Martin Luther] |
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| Here's another one for you: "Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." [Bertrand Russel] |
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| And another: "Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich" [ Lulldapull] |
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| A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." [Neitzsche] |
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There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths." [Bertrand Russel] |
| QUOTE (tauseef_1981 @ Feb 25 2004, 12:20 AM) |
| Haq comes from thinking. Thinking what is GOOD and TRUE. In a society of thieves, theft is seen as HAQ. In a society of noblemen.....theft is seen as EVIL. Does that mean that the Thieves who have "EVOLUTED" in their society stand as much on HAQ as the NOBLEMEN?? NO. you see HAQ is stated by what is right and what is wrong by foreseeing consequences to make a peaceful and PIOUS society. Ans i have to add ....Allah guides peopel to HAQ. He guides whom he feels worthy...whom he pleases. I would love to get ur perspective. I hope its a new one and a meaning ful one. Because so far i see nothing but confusion from you. Thats what i askin you to do. debate with me on how MY FAITH just trample under your reason, sense and understanding. You havent been able to provide me anything from YOUR reason sense and udnerstanding that would make MY faith TRAMPLE underfoot. All u have been able to provide me is "ABYE TU JAHIL MULLAH" , "TU AR-AANB", "TU ARABI HARAMI " etc etc. So tell me what do u think about the purpose of creation and the DUNIYA and after death what happens. You still havent given me the honour of that you think. Humans are very weak. If we were so strong there wouldnt be any DEATH STORAGES in hospitals where they store dead bodies. We all have to die...soem of us die frightful deaths ....try to prevent ur death when it comes. So tell me what proves somehting to you that MY FAITH islam dosnt prove. Again i remind you that u r shying away from providing UR ideoloogies VERSUS islam. Give me soemthign to begin with please lull I think there is soemthign MORE feeble and somethign MORE contemptible about a man who doesnt know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. Look around you.....u live in north america....tell me.....whats the divorce rate....how many bastards are born everyday out of wedlock.......How many innocents are killed by governments for their own benefits. What brings justice to them?? what states justice to them?? which doctrines tell u who is right and who is wrong?? or are we like animals....we fight among ourselves to see who wins.....?? What teaches u good and bad LULL??? a few quotes by mere mortals like U and me doesnt prove anything. Go read the works of Ali (ra) (which i wil post JUST FOR YOU SOON)....and u will see where ur friends above stand. You havent provided me with anything what sows me what u think. I AM WAITING. |
| QUOTE (GangsterNation @ Feb 24 2004, 10:15 PM) |
| hey lul get the following fast!!!! 1. get soap to wash ur mouth hey tauseef you need the following quickly 1. A life 2. a girlfriend 3. a brain 4. and a point in ur ridicoulous posts 5. wtf happened to ur 5 generation jet |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 25 2004, 12:22 AM) |
| Oaay arbee day putar! ooper vaikheen! I have posted my reponse to your arabian brainwashing! |
| QUOTE (Lulldapull @ Feb 24 2004, 10:02 PM) |
| Here you go Allah key taufeeq! God..... what have we done? I have not believed in god from the time I was about 12 years old. However, until recently, I have never thought of god as a serious threat to humanity. I was wrong, and I regret my stupidity. All I can do now is try to work through this belief with you, and show you what it really means to believe in god. I cannot change what you believe, only you can, but I might be able to show you some of the flaws in how you think, and more importantly feel, about god. Many people think that they have nothing to loose by believing in god, and everything to gain. I believe the exact opposite. Theists, not just Christians, are followers; they live their lives as sheep being led by a Shepherd. The only problem is that if there is no Shepherd then they are being led by only their belief in the Shepherd. They cannot see him…. but they keep following the rest of the sheep, even if it leads them off a cliff. So, if you believe in god, I will first try to explain to you what it would take to change. After that, if you decide to continue, I will attempt to show why the belief in god may not be as valid as you may think. Lets begin with one of the most simple yet powerful quotes by one of the first real philosophers. Will it make you feel better if you stop believing in god? Will it make you “happier”? I doubt it. However, in a certain way it may satisfy you more knowing that you believe in the right and not the wrong. To trust your own beliefs may be much more important that blindly being happy. I personally place truth far above happiness, and I wish that everyone did. One of my most important principles is honesty, but if you cannot be honest to others then at least be honest to yourself, be true to yourself, and never live a lie. One of the most interesting arguments I have heard for god is what I call the “feeling” argument. Some say that god must exist because they can “feel” him. When I try to probe further I understand that the feelings they are referring to are things such as comfort, safety, security, and so on. They believe that these overwhelming feelings must be a result of god being “in their lives”. May I suggest another possibility? Maybe it is not god that produces these feelings, but simply the BELIEF in god. The very fact that these people have chosen to believe in a god allows them to feel all these reassuring emotions. It is similar to “believing in” doctors, and then finding out that they can and do make many mistakes. They are quite flawed, just like everything else in the world. But with doctors, you can see the missing foundation in your beliefs as soon as you or someone close to you gets very sick or dies. With the belief in god, you can only realize the flaws in your beliefs when you die, by which time it is far too late. I can understand how hard it must be to accept the possibility that god does not exist. With it you must also accept that you are vulnerable, unsafe, insecure, and alone. But what is important is that if you shed these emotions you can begin to try to regain them in a real and concrete way. You can make yourself and your society safer; you can be with others and love others to reduce loneliness; and you can determine and choose your own destiny knowing that only you, and other caring people of the world, have the power to make you safe, secure, and ultimately truly satisfied. If you do decide to carefully examine your beliefs then try not to be afraid. If you feel overwhelmed then try to get help from others. If you have no one, then ask me; I will always be there for whoever needs me. I may not be able to fly to wherever you live in the world, but I will certainly spend as much time as you need talking with you over the Internet, and I will try to help you through any problems you may have as a result of re-evaluating your outlook on life. I have very limited resources, but this is more important to me than anything else, and no amount of time is too much when it comes to these matters. Is there a god? Well, the simple answer is no! Why would there be such a thing. I have not seen evidence for a god, and see no reason for one to support any basic logical or experiential axioms. To me, and many others, many of which are theists (YES theists), god is a myth... a Santa Claus for grown ups. It doesn't give physical gifts but the reassurance of an eternal life and an explanation to many things through unsupported beliefs. At first it seems that god is a way of explaining many things, but if you look closely you will see that science and logic can explain much more, using far fewer axioms, and can generate a more coherent and consistent world view. So maybe the main reason for a belief in god is salvation. Human kind has reached a point where they think ahead in time, and can see more than just their lives, but also their death. All living things have a will to survive, and when death is seen as inescapable, and end which will come no matter how hard one tries, then life falls apart. People loose their sanity trying to imagine and come to terms with their existence and the fact that they WILL come to an end. It may seem far away, but when one sees the death around them, they realize that no matter how long they keep it off, death will catch up, and life is finite. It seems certain that one day you will be lying in a bed as life goes on around you, and you will feel your own leaving... slowly, painfully, and if you're lucky you don't realize that there is no light at the end of that dark tunnel. In the end, you will be no more, and so no one and nothing will be anymore. When you die not only are you out of the picture but relative to you the picture itself no longer exists... there is no darkness, there is absolutely nothing at all. Now that you're all cheered up an ready to move on, I will get to the heart of the matter. For whatever reason more than 95% of the worlds population believes in some sort of god or deity. Well, if your one of them, let me try to convince you that you may very well be wrong. I will cover all the arguments I have heard from theists and if I don't cover yours then please e-mail it to me. First Cause Argument: “All events have a cause. The universe is not eternal and so must have started to exist at some point. The cause of the universe is something outside and above of the universe itself, and this cause must be god.” Well, there seems to be is a lot of support for the theory that the universe had a beginning, in the form of the big bang. Some evidence for the big bang is the cosmic background radiation, the relative expansion of the universe, and many exotic particles that could have only been made in conditions such as those provided by the big bang. So when you hear a bang something must have caused it… it would be insane to suggest otherwise… right? Of course, in the macroscopic universe all events are causal, things that happen do so for a reason, an event that precedes them. The big bang happened, it was the start of the universe, and so it must have a cause… or are we missing something? Yes, we’re missing something very important. The flaw with this line of reasoning is in its most fundamental assumption that the universe began. To assert that something had a beginning implies that at some point in time it did not exist, and at some point in time it did, and somewhere in the middle is a point that can be defined as the beginning. But there was no point in time when the universe did not exist. Well, what about before the big bang? There was no before… simply because there was no time. The universe contains time, just as it does space, matter, and energy. Therefore its completely meaningless to say “before the big bang”, because it would be like saying “before time”. But when one pictures the big bang its usually something like an explosion… and wasn’t it? Wasn’t the big bang a huge explosion? Absolutely not! The only way to even attempt to describe it would be to use pure mathematics. The big bang did not “happen”, it did not “occur”, it did not “take place”. It wasn’t an event INSIDE space and time, in fact it wasn’t even and event; it was something containing both space and time. It may seem confusing, and it is, but that’s because all human languages, and even our thoughts, are highly dependant on linear time. So the universe is eternal? In a way it is. It has existed for all TIME, which means there is no point in time when the universe did not exist. This in no way contradicts the big bang theory, however it clearly and conclusively shows the major detrimental flaw in the first cause argument. There are other problems with the argument as well. Even assuming that the universe is independent of time and that it did really “start” at some point in time there is still no reason to assume it must have a cause. Many things in the microscopic world are seemingly random, such as certain particles coming in and out of existence. If these things can happen at random, then why can the universe not be born at random? It may very well be just another one of these exotic particles in another universe, or within itself. Intelligent Design Argument: “There is far too much complexity in the universe, which seems to be clearly fine-tuned to support life. This can’t be natural and must be because of an intelligent creator.” The “complexity” here usually includes things such as the relative strengths of the strong and weak nuclear forces, the equivalent number of electrons and protons in the universe, the relative masses of subatomic particles, the expansion rate of the universe, and so on. The argument generally goes about showing how improbable it would be for all of these systems to be exactly matched for the universe to exist as it does. I have never really seen a very consistent form of the argument but I’ll try to address it nonetheless. One very quick and dirty way to explain way all these “improbable” events is to assume that there are either an infinite number of universes, or one that is continually created and destroyed. In that case then it would be no problem to think that this particular improbable configuration of the universe occurred in one of the infinite universes… in fact probabilistically speaking it had to occur. Although this is a perfectly valid explanation some people find it hard to deal with an infinite number of universes (although personally I think it makes a lot more sense than dealing with a magical guy in the sky) and so they reject the idea. For those people I’ll suggest another possibility, one that I prefer myself. Let me start by a question. Why is it that when any two positive numbers are added together the sum is greater than either two numbers? Isn’t it very strange and unlikely? You can do this a million times, and it seems like every time the sum is larger than both number! Well, you could try to answer this by drawing upon the fundamental axioms of mathematics, but the simple answer is that the sum MUST be larger than the two numbers; it is a property of addition. So when you add two more numbers and the sum is greater than the number you shouldn’t be surprised and think that another unlikely event occurred… the result was the only possible result… it was the only thing that could have happened. What about the radius of a coin… if you measure it from one side you get the exact same result as if you measure it from the other side. How unlikely is that? Well… not unlikely at all. In fact, again, this is the way it MUST be because of what a coin is. The two measurements of the radius are not independent, so you can’t simply treat them as two independent random variables. What if the forces of particles are linked in the same way, maybe not to be identical like the radius of a coin, but compatible in the only way in which they can be? What if the number of electrons and protons are not two independent variables each randomly determined when the universe “began”, but are necessarily linked like the two sides of a coin? Maybe these things that seem improbable are not really improbable because they aren’t random, but necessary as part of the existence of the universe. So a universe that exists must have the particles that it does, defined the way they are, simple as the property of the universe itself. To ask why these forces are the way they are, or why the numbers of particles is what it is, would be like asking why the universe exists at all. So as you can see there are two somewhat compatible explanations for the seeming complexity of the universe. But what about the complexity of life itself? Some argue that the amount of information present in life forms cannot have occurred naturally. The argument tries to demonstrate this statically using information theory. However I have yet to see a version of this where “information” is clearly defined as being relative to something, whatever that maybe. Another flaw in the argument is that it assumes that the universe is non-constructive. That is that any information that is formed in the universe is immediately destroyed and does not contribute to or influence the information formed after it. That is completely wrong, and frankly it’s quite amazing how some people build up arguments on such shaky foundations. To sum it up, the answer to the complexity of life is evolution, the building of useful information within organisms with respect to their environments. The Ontological Argument: "A god can be conceived in thought. This entity can be assigned properties such as to make it the greatest entity in every possible way. One of these properties must be that it exists, for something which exists is obviously better and greater than one that does not. Therefore god must exist." The most obvious objection to this argument is that just because a concept must have an associated property does not make that property "true", in any sense of the word. The concept may require a certain property, such as existence, so that it is internally coherent. However this does not make it externally coherent with the rest of ones set of concepts. To understand this counter argument properly you must read the page about truth. There is another, more subtle yet rigorous, argument. This follows directly from the ancient Greek proof that omnipotence is a contradiction. The Ontological argument attempts to use pure logic to construct a valid argument demonstrating that there must exist a god which is the greatest entity in all possible ways. This would mean that this god must be omnipotent, which is clearly a self contradiction. So the very thing that the ontological argument relies on, logic, is what so easily defeats it. If you're unfamiliar with the omnipotence argument here is one short and convincing version: "Can god create a rock which he can not move?". Both answers to this question, yes and no, imply that god can not do everything and hence can not be omnipotent. Historical Evidence: “The bible proves the Christian god” or “The Koran proves the Muslim god” and so on… Do the ancient Greek texts prove the existence of Zeus and Hercules? Do the comic books, which have many series dated every week all of which support each other and form a coherent and consistent “story”, prove the existence of Superman or Spiderman? The Bible and Koran and other religious books may be great works, but they definitely do not act as supporting evidence or reason to believe in god. These documents, and supporting documents are far from being valid historically. They lack far too much and contain too many inconstancies. Some people argue that we read books at school and blindly accept what they say, so why not do the same with the bible. For example I may read history books and I would usually never question them or try to find inconsistencies and attempt to validate all of their references. Or I may see something in the news and just believe it to be true, taking the reporters word for it. Why? I simply don’t care! If the book claims there was a war in 1453 and it was really in 1435 or if there really was no war it really doesn’t make much difference to me. I do assume it to be true, but at a very superficial level. If I had to bet my life on it I would definitely do more research to make sure the “facts” were in fact solid. But to believe in books such as the bible IS to bet your life on it. It is something that, if true, should change your life. It is not to be taken lightly… the bible is NOT the afternoon news and the existence of god is not the same as your local weather report. So if I am to believe something like that I need it to be solid and easy to validate, which none of the religious books come even close to being. I wouldn’t base my most fundamental beliefs on comic books or myths, and I suggest that you don’t either. “There is no reason to believe in god, but there is no reason against it either. If you want me to stop believing you must prove to me that he does not exist!” Well, no… it doesn’t quite work like that. I don’t need to give any evidence against god; I must simply show that there is no good evidence for god. This is because of the way beliefs and concepts work, and I have discussed this in the section about beliefs. Basically beliefs are built up through supports from other beliefs and experiences. They are only valid and can be considered “right” if they reinforce and strengthen the concept system as a whole. It is not enough if they simply don’t contradict with any other belief, and they definitely need positive support. Maybe you don’t agree with what I just suggested. Fine, lets work through a couple of examples. Do you believe in invisible flying unicorns that live around Pluto? Well, there is no reason to believe, and no reason not to believe. They’re invisible, so the fact that they haven’t been seen is no good reason. They fly so they leave no footprints. Basically they are something completely abstract, an idea I created. So do you believe or not? If no, then obviously you see that it makes sense not to believe in things even if there is no reason for or against them. If yes, then HAH… that was just a test to see if you’re honest… in the next example I’ll not only show you that you’re wrong but also that you just lied to yourself. Now I’ll give you another example, one similar to the unicorns, but with a twist. Here it goes… there are invisible walls which can materialize and dematerialize at any time. They are all over the place, trillions of them on this planet! Until right now they were all inactive and never materialized, but from now on they can materialize. And just to make it more interesting, lets say the matter that they’re made of only interacts with your body. So everything and everybody else can walk right through them and not know it. You have no reason to believe or not to believe this, so what do you do? Even if you claim that since you have no evidence either way then there is a 50% chance that it’s true then you must be very careful when walking around. There are trillions of walls, and 50% chance for each to be real, so chances are very high you’re going to walk into one. The question is are you now going to wear a helmet and hold out your hand as you walk around the world to protect yourself, or laugh at this entire paragraph? It’s quite obvious what the sensible answer is. So can I prove there is no god? No, and I don’t need to. All I have to do is show why it makes no sense to believe in one. "I think of god as an axiom." I don't accept god as an axiom because all my axioms are either directly related to my observations or are requirements for "proofs" which also support my observations. I have never seen or experienced god in anyway, and therefor I do not consider god as an axiom. If you wish to do so, then so be it. "God will come to you when you are ready." What the hell does that mean!? I'm as ready as I will ever be, and I would love to believe in god, what else do I need to do? "God will come to you when he is ready." Well, then I will just go on being an atheist until he shows up... and could someone please tell him to hurry the hell up! (politely of course) |