Pakistani Defence Forum > India & China Move To A Strategic Dialogue

Santori

Jan 20 2005, 07:22 PM

India, China move to strategic talks
user posted image

Chinese Vice-Foreign Minister arriving, willingness on both sides to raise engagement level

PRANAB DHAL SAMANTA
Posted online: Friday, January 21, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

NEW DELHI, JANUARY 20: In a bid to take their bilateral relationship to a new level, India and China will initiate the first ever strategic dialogue between the two countries on Monday.

It’s learnt that Chinese Vice-Foreign Minister Wu Dawei will be reaching here on Sunday night for talks with Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran.

He is also slated to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and External Affairs K Natwar Singh during his visit.

The dialogue, sources said, is aimed at broadening the scope of the bilateral relationship, allowing both sides to exchange notes on global and regional security issues.

This will provide them a forum to forge greater understanding of respective positions on issues such as terrorism, energy security, disarmament and UN reforms.

The move to upgrade the relationship assumes significance in the context of the diplomatic efforts by several countries to gain access to the energy resources in Central Asia. Both countries are strategically located to take advantage of this and these discussions will help converge approaches on future plans to tap resources.

More importantly, the talks indicate a willingness on both sides to explore ways to enhance mutual engagement on other pressing issues while continuing to address contentious aspects like the boundary dispute.

India and China, officials said, realise the importance of not letting contentious issues come in the way of taking forward the bilateral relationship.

In fact, this was also emphasised at the meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao on the margins of the Indo-ASEAN summit in Laos last year.

Both leaders agreed to work towards strengthening economic ties which have grown significantly in the recent past. This is reflected in the healthy bilateral trade that now stands close to $13 billion.

Guided by the potential this economic partnership holds for the future, India and China have been discussing prospects of lending a strategic dimension to the relationship. Sources said the strategic dialogue will look to precisely achieve this with the first round aimed at framing the agenda for this interaction.

The Saran-Dawei talks will also prepare the grounds for the upcoming visit of Jiabao who is expected to be here sometime in March. The Chinese Premier had told the Prime Minister in Laos that the visit was the most important event in his calendar for the year.

The warmth in ties was also felt when Army Chief General N C Vij visited Beijing in December where his counterpart General Liang told him that China was willing to exchange maps of the western sector to clarify positions of the two countries along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Sources pointed out that the strategic dialogue is separate from the discussions between Special Representatives on the boundary dispute. While the boundary issue as well as the expanding military relationship between Beijing and Islamabad are expected to figure at the talks on Monday, the idea is to share perceptions on other security issues.

Express

bagbahadur

Jan 21 2005, 11:45 AM

Relationship between India & China is the most important factor
for Asia’s stability and security . It will dictate whether
Asia will be able to come out of US influence in future

sinopakunion

Jan 21 2005, 06:55 PM

I agree bagbahadur. A better relationship between India and China could prove vital to the stability of the region. Its about time Asia governs itself based on regional and domestic influence rather outside influences.

Also China has to sort out its border situation with India from the war in the 60's.

Don;t worry Pakistan, China will always look out for you

Santori

Jan 23 2005, 05:54 AM

QUOTE

India, China to hold strategic talks on Jan 24

Press Trust of India
New Delhi, January 23, 2005|15:29 IST

Seeking to upgrade bilateral relationship, India and China will hold their first-ever 'strategic dialogue' in New Delhi on Monday to discuss major global and regional issues including international terrorism, non-proliferation and energy security.

The main focus will be on important global issues, official sources said in New Delhi. UN reforms, developments in Iraq and issues relating to Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea are also expected to figure during the parleys.

The sources made it clear that there was no overlapping in the ongoing process of discussions by the special representatives on the boundary problem.

Government has still not formally made an announcement on who would carry forward the dialogue with Chinese Special Representative Dai Bingguo -- a task undertaken by late JN Dixit and earlier under the NDA Government by Brajesh Mishra.

At Monday's talks, the Indian side would be led by Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran, while the Chinese delegation would be headed by Vice Foreign Minister for Asian Affairs, Wu Dawei.

The aim of the strategic dialogue is to broaden the scope of the blooming bilateral relationship, allowing both sides to exchange notes on global and regional security issues, the sources said.

The two sides are expected to exchange views on the stalled North Korean nuclear issue, a topic personally handled by Wu as the host of the six-party talks on a sensitive matter that has severe implications for security and stability of Asia.

Wu is likely to call on Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and External Affairs Minister K Natwar Singh during the visit.

The need for such a dialogue was emphasised during the meeting of the Prime Minister with his Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao on the sidelines of the Indo-ASEAN Summit in Laos in November last.

Recognising the immense untapped potential for economic cooperation, the two leaders had agreed to strengthen this relationship.

The talks will also prepare grounds for the visit of Wen expected to take place in March.

Reflecting the increasing significance China is attaching to consolidating ties with India, Wen had noted that his visit to India would be the most important event in 2005.

HT

dave1

Jan 23 2005, 05:20 PM

It'd be difficult to result in something good.

Santori

Jan 23 2005, 06:42 PM

DELHI DURBAR: Sino-Indian relations: a future unlike the past —C Raja Mohan

India and China have barely scratched the surface of the potential bilateral economic cooperation. As the world’s second largest economy, China, and the fourth largest, India, begin to deepen their engagement, the consequences will not be linear. They have the potential to transform the geo-economics of the subcontinent and beyond

As India and China unveil their first round of strategic dialogue this week, the signs of a different political future for the subcontinent and Asia are at hand. The strategic dialogue is not aimed at adding yet another brick to the expanding edifice of Sino-Indian relations. It is about achieving a qualitative transformation of a relationship that has already expanded in terms of quantity.

Imparting a new strategic dimension to the Sino-Indian relations could also raise the profile of the forthcoming visit to India by the Chinese premier Wen Jiabao later this year. Expectations are already high that the Wen’s visit could turn out to be a landmark in Sino-Indian relations.

That India and China have had steadily improving ties since the late 1980s has been widely noticed. The only brief exception was in the immediate aftermath of the Indian nuclear tests in May 1998.

Few analysts around the world, however, appreciate the possibilities for strategic cooperation between the two nations. In the past India and China have often issued thundering statements on global issues and have often called for a multi-polar world. But they have rarely found themselves in tandem on any matters of substance within their neighbourhood.

This has reinforced the cynical view that as rising powers of Asia, India and China are destined for rivalry. Others have argued that given the long legacy of mutual suspicion and a host of bilateral problems, India and China will tend to have a wary normalisation rather than an enthusiastic engagement.

But the talks this week between the Indian foreign secretary Shyam Saran and the visiting Chinese deputy foreign minister Wu Dawei could begin to change all that by clearing the ground for a tangible political partnership between India and China.

Don’t be fooled by the level at which the strategic dialogue is taking place. India and China have always moved deliberately and with caution on their bilateral relations. Talks at the level of senior officials have had the benefit of bringing on board the two bureaucratic establishments that have a long history of mistrust. Sustained talks at the official level have begun to create a new habit of cooperation.

The dramatic expansion of trade between the two countries in the last few years is the biggest single new factor in Sino-Indian relations. From a few hundred million dollars in the mid 1990s, commerce between the two countries has now galloped to nearly $13 billion in 2004.

While the trade volume remains a small percentage of Chinese trade, it is the growth rate — which has often been more than 50 per cent per annum — that signal the prospect for an explosive future for Sino-Indian economic relations. The robust growth of trade will inevitably be followed by increased flows of investment. As the Indian and Chinese middle classes begin to travel abroad in large numbers, there is a huge potential in drawing the people of the two nations to visit each other for tourism.

It is in this context that experts from the two countries are engaged in a study of comprehensive economic cooperation that could include more liberal trading arrangements.

The growing economic cooperation has been accompanied by a new political approach to bilateral relations focused on problem solving. The two nations are already in the process of removing the question of Sikkim as a contentious issue in their bilateral relations.

Even more important, India and China are in the middle of serious negotiations at the political level to resolve the long-standing boundary dispute. A broad framework agreement on the principles for the resolution of the boundary dispute during Wen’s visit to India could help create an extra-ordinarily positive political environment for the rapid advancement of bilateral relations. Meanwhile high-level military exchanges have gathered momentum.

As they widen cooperation, one big strategic opportunity awaits India and China. Amidst the rapid growth of their economies, New Delhi and Beijing should be giving some thought to the imperatives of wider regional economic integration in their neighbourhood.

Although both India and China are negotiating free trade agreements separately with the ten-member Association of South East Asian Nations, they are a long way from applying the same principles to many regions that fall between and around the two nations. Political sensitivities in New Delhi and Beijing in recent decades have resulted in closing the historical trade routes between the frontier regions of the two countries. As a consequence people living in the shared border regions of India and China have tended to suffer.

Although India and China do conduct border trade at some points along their frontier, it could be expanded in size and scope. Equally important, the two nations would have to eventually consider the possibility of transit trade through the traditional routes that link the two nations.

As they re-establish centuries-old trading links between Xinjiang, Tibet and Yunnan regions of China and the India’s Himalayan provinces and states in the Indo-Gangetic plain as well as states in the North Eastern region, New Delhi and Beijing will bring rapid development of some of the remotest regions in their countries as well as integrate inner Asia into the global market.

In expanding their own bilateral economic cooperation, India and China will also be able to draw in their neighbouring countries in Central, South and South East Asia into the processes of regional economic integration.

In the past, there has been a sense of rivalry between the two nations in their neighbouring regions. But today amidst globalisation of all economies, there can be no exclusive spheres of influence. In fact the two sides could begin to explore joint regional ventures in such areas as trans-border pipelines and transport corridors.

India and China have barely scratched the surface of the potential bilateral economic cooperation. As the world’s second largest economy, China, and the fourth largest, India, begin to deepen their engagement, the consequences will not be linear. They have the potential to transform the geo-economics of the subcontinent and beyond.

C Raja Mohan is professor of South Asian studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University and a columnist for the Indian Express

Daily Times

Srirangan

Jan 23 2005, 10:11 PM

I think trade and commerce is a huge factor. Both economies are depending on West as of now, but they'ld wsh to be dependent on multiple source (therefore each other) than just the western hemesphere.

Ajgir

Jan 24 2005, 08:41 AM

Secrets behind the Chinese and Indian miracles

Recently it has been seen that India and China have emerged as two major and key players in the global economic arena, in fact both countries rival one another as the world’s most favorable destination for foreign direct investment.

China has emerged as the global manufacturing hub whereas India has taken over the charge of technology and information, although there is a substantial manufacturing sector in India too. The aim of this article is to explain the phenomenal growth the two economies have embarked upon over the past one decade; in relation with a concept of micro-economics known as ‘economies of scale’ although the concept generally is applied to firms and industries but there is another unique dimension of the concept and that is in relation with the economy of a country.

Economies of scale are attributed with certain characteristics such as specialized labor, managerial skills etc. It is worth noting that these characteristics are also common among the economically and socially developed countries of the world.

As the world has entered the 21st century, the notion of geographical boundaries is thinning, international politics and global dominance are now directly linked with a strong economy, the life cycles of human development are shortening at speed never seen before. The dawn of 21st century is another milestone in human history as it marks the beginning of “knowledge and information revolution” era, It is said that the 21st century would see technological progress on the order of 200 centuries.

A number of new challenges have risen for the developing countries in this fast changing world, but one must not forget that these challenges also hold with them several opportunities, it is only that we give a proper response to these challenges that the opportunities will land in our reach.

CHINA & INDIA: THE ENIGMA?

Three important factors that have emerged in the competitive global economic market are - Price, Quality and Image. Both China and India are blessed with huge amount of human resource which more importantly is properly trained through efficient/functional technical education systems in the country. Quality comes from technology, and technology either with research or FDI, both China and India are ranked number one and two in terms of favorable environment for long term investment, contrary to that Pakistan is rated ‘D’ (i.e. high risk in medium term for investment) by Coface, the French multinational which is a global leader in export credit ratings, risk assessment, and insurance for receivables.

Third and equally important dimension of competitive global economy is the image a country carries and builds, China is a nation of over one billion with an upper-middle class of about 250 million and growing, therefore no major global corporate entity whether financial or non-financial can afford to stay out of this potentially enormous market. India on the other hand has a sound democracy and stable institutions supplemented with a population of over a billion approximately. It has channeled its human resource potential towards becoming knowledge workers, by establishing state of the art professional institutes throughout the country.

ECONOMIES OF SCALE? CHINA & INDIA AS A CASE STUDY

The principle of economies of scale states that “as the production capacity of a firm increases, a number of factors will lead to lower average costs of production”, the main factors being :

1. Labor Specialization

2. Managerial Specialization

3. Efficient Capital

4. Knowledge spillovers

5. Continuous Improvement Cycle (CIC) - “learning by doing”

1. Labor Specialization:

Labor specialization or training has a great impact on increase in efficiency, China and India had placed their systems/infrastructure of technical education in the right order back in the 1980s, but we here in Pakistan unfortunately couldn’t develop a sound base for functional literacy in our country and majority of the educated do not possess the skills needed for growing in this tight race of economic growth in a highly globalized era.

2. Managerial Specialization:

Both the countries have a sound public sector education system at all i.e. primary, secondary & tertiary levels which is quite an achievement considering the magnitude of their target populations. India has a strong network of IITs (Indian Institutes of technology) and IIMs (Indian Institutes of Management) which have credible standing among International universities. The IIM-Ahmedabad is ranked as the Best Business school in Asia (by BusinessWeek) followed by three other Indian B-Schools in the top10, China on the other hand has approx. 15 universities in the top 50 universities of Asia in the same rankings.

3. Efficient Capital:

Persistence of policies and a broader proactive vision has resulted in strong Industrial sectors in both the countries although India has a large Agriculture sector, but its share is shrinking due to growing manufacturing and service sectors. India was virtually on the verge of bankruptcy in early 1990s until they started liberalization of their economy and persevered with it. By the late 1990s, the agriculture sector accounted for only 25% of GDP, down from 40% in the late 70s.

This kind of robust Industrial Infrastructure when complemented by a strong knowledge equipped labor force and an indigenously prepared army of professionals makes a highly effective and efficient arrangement for the national economy.

4. Knowledge Spillovers:

Knowledge is one of the important input factors in highly innovative industries and countries. The specialized knowledge that is crucial to success in innovative industries and countries comes from:

o Research and development efforts
o Reverse engineering
o Exchange of information and ideas with the outside world

India and China both produce thousands of PhDs annually, which reflects the high volume of academic research being undertaken by these nations. The number of PhDs produced in India annually is in excess of 5000 which alone is greater than the total PhDs produced in our country’s history.

5. Continuous Improvement Cycle (CIC):

It is also of crucial importance that you learn from your mistakes, as it is said that, “the biggest mistake is to not learn from your mistakes”. They have been predictable and rational in policy making and consistent with them too, with a special emphasis on implementation of policies.
Consistency of policies in China is ensured through the strong one party system. In India we saw that when the congress party won the 2004 elections, the stock markets collapsed and there were speculations that the new regime would change the investment friendly policies of the country, however it was the strong democratic tradition which prevented them from doing so.

The concept of continuous improvement is also endorsed by Islam; Prophet Muhammad (SAW) once said that, “A true Momin is the one who’s every next day is better than the previous day”.

DISECONOMIES OF SCALE?

In time the expansion of output may lead to diseconomies and therefore higher average total costs (ATC). The main factor leading to diseconomies of scale is the difficulty of efficiently controlling and coordinating operations as an entity becomes a large producer. The factors leading to a diseconomy of scale can be generalized in the following categories:

1. Inefficient controlling and coordination

2. No delegation of Authority

3. Alienation / Shrinking opportunities for the workers

1. Inefficient Controlling and Coordination:

Lack of capacity of government line departments and consequently a lack of coordination is a common characteristic of all underdeveloped countries, there are many departments doing the same job but in an un coordinated fashion with null net result.

2. No Delegation of Authority:

‘One man show’ is prevalent in our country, which leads to many problems of communication, coordination, red-tapism, and lack of cooperation. One person cannot assemble, digest and understand all the information pertinent to accurate decision making. Weak Democratic culture and values also leads to mistrust among fellow team players and colleagues.

3. Alienation - Shrinking opportunities for the working class:

Weak democratic tradition leads to social disharmony and segregation of the society, people stop taking interest (and levels of motivation become dies) in their work because they have nothing at stake. They suppose that they are of no value neither would their voice change anything, these are all signs of a depressed nation.
It would be quite relevant here to quote what once was said by Dr. Mahbub ul Haq; that, “Economic growth is like wild horse; it needs to be trained to serve the real interests of the society. If the horse misbehaves in some societies, then the fault is not that of the horse but the skill of the rider. Economic growth is essential in poor societies - but even more important is its structure and distribution.”

In the end I would also quote what is said to be the Chinese formula of sustainable economic development, that, “Social Cohesion and Political Stability are pre-requisites for Sustainable Economic Development”

Peace

Santori

Jan 24 2005, 09:32 AM

QUOTE(dave1 @ Jan 23 2005, 05:20 PM)

It'd be difficult to result in something good.

[right][snapback]574799[/snapback][/right]

For those who are expecting instant changes in long held views and national interests, that probably is true. The nature of strategic dialogue infers no instaneous results. The purpose here is long term and in the case of India and China very long term over a period of many decades. The strategic dialogue identifies where each countries real interests lie and the areas of potential friction. Both China and India will join where thier interests are simmilar or same and find ways of reducing potential areas of friction. It will mean greater involvement of the 2 countries in trade culture politics and defence. It also means long term actions to prevent areas of friction. What is critical is that China has entered into a strategic dialogue with India, to my knowlege India is the only country that China has chosen to forge a long term strategic dialogue with, and has probably come to the conclusion that India can no longer be contained via its faithful lapdog, Pakistan, and China must forge strong links with India for the sake of Chinas future.

These talks will last many years as the strategic establishments in the two countries align and forge a unified view of Asia's future and the worlds. Expect more trade and joint defence exercises in the short term

battlex

Jan 24 2005, 10:21 AM

china wants india more than pakistan. the present trade B/w THEM stands at 12 billion that is equivalent to total pakistani export to the world in 2004. pakistan is just a partner in buying chinese junk. were as at these time india has favourable trade balance with china. and as time passes more indian and chinese company are investing in each other country than pakistani company has. and morover pakistan has nothing to offer to china that it does not produce but india has something to offer to chinese. these way they will favour indian in coming years.

dave1

Jan 24 2005, 02:07 PM

QUOTE

china wants india more than pakistan. the present trade B/w THEM stands at 12 billion that is equivalent to total pakistani export to the world in 2004. pakistan is just a partner in buying chinese junk. were as at these time india has favourable trade balance with china. and as time passes more indian and chinese company are investing in each other country than pakistani company has. and morover pakistan has nothing to offer to china that it does not produce but india has something to offer to chinese. these way they will favour indian in coming years.

India is selling her precious raw materials to China and get a surplus in trade. It does not make Indian export any superior to others. India's total trade balance has been in red for several years. Total trade of 130 billion is only one third of Taiwanese. Trade does not change national relationship or gain people's friendship. US and Japan are the big traders with China. They are certainly not fond of each other on issues of national interests.

Pakistan does need to catch up in economic development. You know, one of main obstacles for Pakistan development is her greedy neighbor India. As a bigger country India provoked three wars to Pakistan and constantly pressed Pakistan in international community. Without the evil shadow of war Pakistani could as well spend the money buying European products if they want.

As to Chinese view on Indian relation they don't like big mouthed phrases or bluff about Chinese military threat to India. Not long ago China was India's enemy and now a potential strategic partner? Not convincing.

My view on Pak, China and India is that the three countries can only develop a strategic relationship all together. Otherwise it won't work.

dave1

Jan 24 2005, 02:51 PM

QUOTE

For those who are expecting instant changes in long held views and national interests, that probably is true. The nature of strategic dialogue infers no instaneous results. The purpose here is long term and in the case of India and China very long term over a period of many decades. The strategic dialogue identifies where each countries real interests lie and the areas of potential friction. Both China and India will join where thier interests are simmilar or same and find ways of reducing potential areas of friction. It will mean greater involvement of the 2 countries in trade culture politics and defence. It also means long term actions to prevent areas of friction. What is critical is that China has entered into a strategic dialogue with India, to my knowlege India is the only country that China has chosen to forge a long term strategic dialogue with, and has probably come to the conclusion that India can no longer be contained via its faithful lapdog, Pakistan, and China must forge strong links with India for the sake of Chinas future.

These talks will last many years as the strategic establishments in the two countries align and forge a unified view of Asia's future and the worlds. Expect more trade and joint defence exercises in the short term

India is certainly on right track towards economic development. India was inspired and stimulated by Chinese economic development. She's still mimicing and trying to compete with China. For instance Indian oil companies are out there wherever there's a Chinese oil company present.

It's too early to comment on how important India-China relationship would be in future world. I would say the problem is on the Indian side. Indians often eye down others as inferiors, Pakistani as religious foes and Chinese as commies, but only view yourselves as wisest creatures with perfect combination of Hindu and democracy. This mentality is a toxin to relationship with Pak and China or serious hinder for India to become what she wants to be in the world.

Trade can only increase interactions but faithful friendship.

MKI

Jan 24 2005, 06:23 PM

Dave,

Why should India-Pak relation come into everything in the world? Is is the only prism we have to look at the world from?

Santori

Jan 24 2005, 08:10 PM

Dave,

QUOTE

India is certainly on right track towards economic development. India was inspired and stimulated by Chinese economic development. She's still mimicing and trying to compete with China. For instance Indian oil companies are out there wherever there's a Chinese oil company present.

This brings a smile to my face. We are certainly stimulated by China's economic developement but not quite inspired.

Now it may be true to say that China is mimicking Taiwan Singapore Korea Japan and the US as it once mimicked the USSR but India would find it hard to mimick China as our political systems are different. In India consensus via divergent political parties languages religions is sought through a multi party democratic process. In case it escaped your notice we dont have the communist party in permanent residence run by a faceless central commitee. Another thing about Indian oil companies you may not be aware of, India's oil companies were venturing abroad DECADES before China. It is true to say however that the Chinese companies are far far better resourced and are certainly outbidding and out venturing the Indians

QUOTE

It's too early to comment on how important India-China relationship would be in future world. I would say the problem is on the Indian side. Indians often eye down others as inferiors, Pakistani as religious foes and Chinese as commies, but only view yourselves as wisest creatures with perfect combination of Hindu and democracy. This mentality is a toxin to relationship with Pak and China or serious hinder for India to become what she wants to be in the world.

It is too early. India eye down others as inferior ?

India certainly does not look down on China or for that matter anyone else. Indias problems with Pakistan are well known and I wont discuss those here but they are to do with religion only tangentially, after all its Pakistan which is claiming part of India on basis of religion and India resisting on the basis of secularism. If India is a Hindu democracy then why is its President a Muslim and its Prime Minister a Sikh. Why do more Muslims live in India than in Pakistan. No Indian leader has ever described China as commies, indeed India was the founder member of the non alighned movement that kept its distance from communist western rivalry. It was Pakistan that joined CENTO and SEATO the anti-communist US run alliances. India's Bengal state has been run by the communist party for DECADES and so has Kerala but they are both part of the Indian union. The toxin in the Sino-Indian relationship is the un-demarcated borders. When those are settled and it appears thats likely in few years time, the toxin will ebb away. What India wants to become isnt in the hands of China or anyone else, it lies firmly in the hands of the Indian people

QUOTE

Trade can only increase interactions but faithful friendship.

True

eachus

Jan 24 2005, 08:26 PM

QUOTE(battlex @ Jan 24 2005, 10:21 AM)

china wants india more than pakistan. the present trade B/w THEM stands at 12 billion that is equivalent to total pakistani export to the world in 2004. pakistan is just a partner in buying chinese junk. were as at these time india has favourable trade balance with china. and as time passes more indian and chinese company are investing in each other country than pakistani company has. and morover pakistan has nothing to offer to china that it does not produce but india has something to offer to chinese. these way they will favour indian in coming years.
[right][snapback]575146[/snapback][/right]

No, China wants Pakistan a lot more than India. US wanted Pakistan a lot more than India too. today is so, next decade is the same. As long as Mid-East still produce oil and Iran does not move its country location out of the area, Pakistan worth 2 times more than India. About the investment, China invested 5B in Pakistan in last 3 years, will do the same in the coming 3 years, maybe more.

By the way, Pakistan buys Chinese goods, they dont buy India junks. the biggest customer for Chinese goods is US. See, Thailand has money to build a 3G communication network, Do you Indians have money to do so? This news was a few hours too old, Thailand officially(on TV channel 11) announced Huawai won this project just in hours ago.

-------------------------------
http://english.c114.net/newsheadline_html/...24111113-1.Html
Huawei tipped for Thai CDMA contract
Updated: 2005-1-24 11:11:13

Huawei Technologies is being tipped to win a 13 billion baht contract ($342 million) to expand the CDMA network of CAT Telecom in Thailand, according to a report in the Nation newspaper.

The report said that Huawei had the highest score in the technical qualification round. It is also expected to submit the lowest bid.

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra will preside over today's scheduled electronic auction to choose a winning bidder for the project, with ambassadors from three countries with companies vying for the project also invited as observers to ensure full transparency.

The auction will take place at the head office of CAT Telecom at 2 pm today. The other two shortlisted bidders are Motorola and Ericsson.

MKI

Jan 25 2005, 12:08 AM

QUOTE(eachus @ Jan 24 2005, 08:26 PM)

No, China wants Pakistan a lot more than India. US wanted Pakistan a lot more than India too. today is so, next decade is the same. As long as Mid-East still produce oil and Iran does not move its country location out of the area, Pakistan worth 2 times more than India. About the investment, China invested 5B in Pakistan in last 3 years, will do the same in the coming 3 years, maybe more.
[right][snapback]575422[/snapback][/right]

You are right Eachus. You are bang on target. Pakistan is twice more worth to China than India, as shown by its investments in Pakistan. Infact Pakistan is more important to China than US or Japan. It invensts more in pakistan than in Japan and US. Japan and US are just some client that buy stuff.

Also Pakistan is much more important to USA than any other country, as shown by US aid given to pakistan. It is much more aid than the aid given to India and China combined after the 9-11. And as you said, it is not going to change unless Middle east stops producing oil or Iran changes it location. If it was not for you, i would not have gained this knowledge. Poor Indians do not know this and keep harping about some middle class which does not even exist, trade that cannot happen, democracy that does not work, technology that is non existant, cheap labor which is better in China, Tech companies which do not work.

Infact some of the Chineese leadership who are rotten that think that strategic relationship with India is good, they do not have the vision or the thinking or the strategic mind of this caliber. Seems like they donot know anything about making a country to have economic success and high growth rates in double digits. How dare they even talk to Indians who produce junk and have nothing to offer. I think someone needs to teach that leadership how to run the Chinese economy and strategic affairs. You should take up that mantel.

bagbahadur

Jan 25 2005, 06:49 AM

QUOTE(dave1 @ Jan 24 2005, 02:07 PM)

India is selling her precious raw materials to China and get a surplus in trade. It does not make Indian export any superior to others. India's total trade balance has been in red for several years. Total trade of 130 billion is only one third of Taiwanese. Trade does not change national relationship or gain people's friendship. US and Japan are the big traders with China. They are certainly not fond of each other on issues of national interests.

Pakistan does need to catch up in economic development. You know, one of main obstacles for Pakistan development is her greedy neighbor India. As a bigger country India provoked three wars to Pakistan and constantly pressed Pakistan in international community. Without the evil shadow of war Pakistani could as well spend the money buying European products if they want.

As to Chinese view on Indian relation they don't like big mouthed phrases or bluff about Chinese military threat to India. Not long ago China was India's enemy and now a potential strategic partner? Not convincing.

My view on Pak, China and India is that the three countries can only develop a strategic relationship all together. Otherwise it won't work.
[right][snapback]575259[/snapback][/right]

This is complete rubbish….
Pakistan is created on the basis of hate , greed & bloodshed…
From the very beginning its one point agenda is to harm India and
reduce its growth. India could have progressed a lot if they don’t
have to face this antagonism for such long. But again India is India…
regardless of Pakistani problem ..it will progress at a brisk pace and
claim its position in the world order.

Ajgir

Jan 25 2005, 07:33 AM

MKI,

Thank you Sir. As an Indian I would support your “True” assertions. India is in heap big DOO DOO.

China’s need of Pakistan is extremely high – may be Ten times more than India.

This is due to the fact that China has constructed the Port of Gwadar and is going to use it for Importing Oil and Natural Gas from Asia and Africa – you must have read the Articles and the assertions by various Pakistani High Officials and Ministers. In addition there will be othr commodities also imported for onward transport to Xinjiang.

Thus with a Railway System and a Pipeline System will be built from Gwadar to Kashi in Xinjiang and Gwadar will handle Hundreds of Ships not only bringing in Oil and Natural Gas (even LNG from West Africa) but also ships carrying all of Xinjiang’s Exports to Asia, Africa and Europe.

India is of course exporting its Raw Materials to China including possibly Three Million Tons of Steel.

Peace

dave1

Jan 25 2005, 09:25 AM

QUOTE

Dave,
Why should India-Pak relation come into everything in the world? Is is the only prism we have to look at the world from?

It's called regional peace and development. Any "strategic" relationship between the two big countries is bound to bring at least regional stability and benifits. Otherwise it's not strategic.

dave1

Jan 25 2005, 09:33 AM

QUOTE

This brings a smile to my face. We are certainly stimulated by China's economic developement but not quite inspired. Now it may be true to say that China is mimicking Taiwan Singapore Korea Japan and the US as it once mimicked the USSR but India would find it hard to mimick China as our political systems are different. In India consensus via divergent political parties languages religions is sought through a multi party democratic process. In case it escaped your notice we dont have the communist party in permanent residence run by a faceless central commitee. Another thing about Indian oil companies you may not be aware of, India's oil companies were venturing abroad DECADES before China. It is true to say however that the Chinese companies are far far better resourced and are certainly outbidding and out venturing the Indians

Even Indian government said India started reformation for economic development 13 years too late (compared to China). Mimicking good things of others is not a bad word. No offence here. If you believe India created everything yourselves and so advanced my question is why you haven't done this
20 or 30 years earlier. India is the "biggest democracy" in the last 57 years, while the D-process has only been an Indian pride but nothing fruitful. So please stop those craps.

QUOTE

It is too early. India eye down others as inferior ?

No, not India as a whole. I meant Indian individuals. If you want references stay longer or search old posts in this forum.

dave1

Jan 25 2005, 09:38 AM

QUOTE

This is complete rubbish:
Pakistan is created on the basis of hate , greed & bloodshed…
From the very beginning its one point agenda is to harm India and
reduce its growth. India could have progressed a lot if they don’t
have to face this antagonism for such long. .

Correct! This is complete crap!

BhindiUnderWatch

Jan 25 2005, 10:43 AM

QUOTE(Ajgir @ Jan 25 2005, 07:33 AM)

MKI,

Thank you Sir. As an Indian I would support your “True” assertions. India is in heap big DOO DOO.

China’s need of Pakistan is extremely high – may be Ten times more than India.

This is due to the fact that China has constructed the Port of Gwadar and is going to use it for Importing Oil and Natural Gas from Asia and Africa – you must have read the Articles and the assertions by various Pakistani High Officials and Ministers. In addition there will be othr commodities also imported for onward transport to Xinjiang.

Thus with a Railway System and a Pipeline System will be built from Gwadar to Kashi in Xinjiang and Gwadar will handle Hundreds of Ships not only bringing in Oil and Natural Gas (even LNG from West Africa) but also ships carrying all of Xinjiang’s Exports to Asia, Africa and Europe.

India is of course exporting its Raw Materials to China including possibly Three Million Tons of Steel.

Peace
[right][snapback]575600[/snapback][/right]

ha, you even cannot understand the sarcasm behind what mki is saying and u have become a senior member on these forum. you dont even know that american call these aid thing in their country as renting a state to do their bad things and same is done by china, it is renting pakistan for its own benefit and not for pakistan's. understood u stupid

Santori

Jan 25 2005, 05:16 PM

Talks with India will lead to border solution, says China

BEIJING: China said on Tuesday the first round of the India-China strategic dialogue would help solve the nagging border dispute between the two countries.

Asked whether he believed the talks in New Delhi this week would have a positive impact on the boundary dispute, foreign ministry spokesman Kong Quan said: “Very simply, yes.”

“The two sides have expressed the goodwill to properly resolve the issue,” Kong said. “We expect to work hard with India ... so bilateral relations can proceed even faster on a new foundation.”

India and China fought a brief border war in 1962 that left their relations in shreds. But in recent years they have played down their territorial dispute to focus on improving commercial and other ties.

Both sides are engaged in discussions to resolve the lingering boundary issue — a fallout of the 1962 war — with special representatives holding several rounds of talks since June 2003.3.

This week’s talks between delegations led by Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei and Indian foreign secretary Shyam Saran focused on a regional and global issues including multi-polarity, non-proliferation and terrorism.

Kong described them as “very successful,” adding that they were conducive towards regional stability.

Ties between India and China have warmed since a visit to Beijing by then-premier Atal Behari Vajpayee in June 2003. afp

Daily Times

dave1

Jan 26 2005, 04:55 AM

Solving border issue is necessary and fine.

Ajgir

Jan 26 2005, 06:24 AM

QUOTE(Titan @ Jan 25 2005, 10:43 AM)

ha, you even cannot understand the sarcasm behind what mki is saying and u have become a senior member on these forum. you dont even know that american call these aid thing in their country as renting a state to do their bad things and same is done by china, it is renting pakistan for its own benefit and not for pakistan's. understood u stupid

[right][snapback]575671[/snapback][/right]

Titan,

I am sure that MKI is not being sarcastic at all. In fact it is absolutely true.

However if you can point to various parts you consider to be “sarcasm” then I will definitely give the matter another think.

Thank you for stating that America and China are renting Pakistan. I am sorry that I cannot agree with your BALDERDASH. Especially in respect of China as it is Pakistan’s Long Lasting Totally Reliable Ally.

Since you have quoted my full post do you mean to say that statement on the Importance of Pakistan in General and Gwadar in Particular to China is also “sarcasm”?

Peace

aziqbal

Jan 26 2005, 06:39 AM

they can complement each others economy

gingerbeard

Jan 26 2005, 06:44 AM

QUOTE(Ajgir @ Jan 24 2005, 08:41 AM)

Secrets behind the Chinese and Indian miracles

Recently it has been seen that India and China have emerged as two major and key players in the global economic arena, in fact both countries rival one another as the world’s most favorable destination for foreign direct investment.

China has emerged as the global manufacturing hub whereas India has taken over the charge of technology and information, although there is a substantial manufacturing sector in India too. The aim of this article is to explain the phenomenal growth the two economies have embarked upon over the past one decade; in relation with a concept of micro-economics known as ‘economies of scale’ although the concept generally is applied to firms and industries but there is another unique dimension of the concept and that is in relation with the economy of a country.

Economies of scale are attributed with certain characteristics such as specialized labor, managerial skills etc. It is worth noting that these characteristics are also common among the economically and socially developed countries of the world.

As the world has entered the 21st century, the notion of geographical boundaries is thinning, international politics and global dominance are now directly linked with a strong economy, the life cycles of human development are shortening at speed never seen before. The dawn of 21st century is another milestone in human history as it marks the beginning of “knowledge and information revolution” era, It is said that the 21st century would see technological progress on the order of 200 centuries.

A number of new challenges have risen for the developing countries in this fast changing world, but one must not forget that these challenges also hold with them several opportunities, it is only that we give a proper response to these challenges that the opportunities will land in our reach.

CHINA & INDIA: THE ENIGMA?

Three important factors that have emerged in the competitive global economic market are - Price, Quality and Image. Both China and India are blessed with huge amount of human resource which more importantly is properly trained through efficient/functional technical education systems in the country. Quality comes from technology, and technology either with research or FDI, both China and India are ranked number one and two in terms of favorable environment for long term investment, contrary to that Pakistan is rated ‘D’ (i.e. high risk in medium term for investment) by Coface, the French multinational which is a global leader in export credit ratings, risk assessment, and insurance for receivables.

Third and equally important dimension of competitive global economy is the image a country carries and builds, China is a nation of over one billion with an upper-middle class of about 250 million and growing, therefore no major global corporate entity whether financial or non-financial can afford to stay out of this potentially enormous market. India on the other hand has a sound democracy and stable institutions supplemented with a population of over a billion approximately. It has channeled its human resource potential towards becoming knowledge workers, by establishing state of the art professional institutes throughout the country.

ECONOMIES OF SCALE? CHINA & INDIA AS A CASE STUDY

The principle of economies of scale states that “as the production capacity of a firm increases, a number of factors will lead to lower average costs of production”, the main factors being :

1. Labor Specialization

2. Managerial Specialization

3. Efficient Capital

4. Knowledge spillovers

5. Continuous Improvement Cycle (CIC) - “learning by doing”

1. Labor Specialization:

Labor specialization or training has a great impact on increase in efficiency, China and India had placed their systems/infrastructure of technical education in the right order back in the 1980s, but we here in Pakistan unfortunately couldn’t develop a sound base for functional literacy in our country and majority of the educated do not possess the skills needed for growing in this tight race of economic growth in a highly globalized era.

2. Managerial Specialization:

Both the countries have a sound public sector education system at all i.e. primary, secondary & tertiary levels which is quite an achievement considering the magnitude of their target populations. India has a strong network of IITs (Indian Institutes of technology) and IIMs (Indian Institutes of Management) which have credible standing among International universities. The IIM-Ahmedabad is ranked as the Best Business school in Asia (by BusinessWeek) followed by three other Indian B-Schools in the top10, China on the other hand has approx. 15 universities in the top 50 universities of Asia in the same rankings.

3. Efficient Capital:

Persistence of policies and a broader proactive vision has resulted in strong Industrial sectors in both the countries although India has a large Agriculture sector, but its share is shrinking due to growing manufacturing and service sectors. India was virtually on the verge of bankruptcy in early 1990s until they started liberalization of their economy and persevered with it. By the late 1990s, the agriculture sector accounted for only 25% of GDP, down from 40% in the late 70s.

This kind of robust Industrial Infrastructure when complemented by a strong knowledge equipped labor force and an indigenously prepared army of professionals makes a highly effective and efficient arrangement for the national economy.

4. Knowledge Spillovers:

Knowledge is one of the important input factors in highly innovative industries and countries. The specialized knowledge that is crucial to success in innovative industries and countries comes from:

o Research and development efforts
o Reverse engineering
o Exchange of information and ideas with the outside world

India and China both produce thousands of PhDs annually, which reflects the high volume of academic research being undertaken by these nations. The number of PhDs produced in India annually is in excess of 5000 which alone is greater than the total PhDs produced in our country’s history.
5. Continuous Improvement Cycle (CIC):

It is also of crucial importance that you learn from your mistakes, as it is said that, “the biggest mistake is to not learn from your mistakes”. They have been predictable and rational in policy making and consistent with them too, with a special emphasis on implementation of policies.
Consistency of policies in China is ensured through the strong one party system. In India we saw that when the congress party won the 2004 elections, the stock markets collapsed and there were speculations that the new regime would change the investment friendly policies of the country, however it was the strong democratic tradition which prevented them from doing so.

The concept of continuous improvement is also endorsed by Islam; Prophet Muhammad (SAW) once said that, “A true Momin is the one who’s every next day is better than the previous day”.

DISECONOMIES OF SCALE?

In time the expansion of output may lead to diseconomies and therefore higher average total costs (ATC). The main factor leading to diseconomies of scale is the difficulty of efficiently controlling and coordinating operations as an entity becomes a large producer. The factors leading to a diseconomy of scale can be generalized in the following categories:

1. Inefficient controlling and coordination

2. No delegation of Authority

3. Alienation / Shrinking opportunities for the workers

1. Inefficient Controlling and Coordination:

Lack of capacity of government line departments and consequently a lack of coordination is a common characteristic of all underdeveloped countries, there are many departments doing the same job but in an un coordinated fashion with null net result.

2. No Delegation of Authority:

‘One man show’ is prevalent in our country, which leads to many problems of communication, coordination, red-tapism, and lack of cooperation. One person cannot assemble, digest and understand all the information pertinent to accurate decision making. Weak Democratic culture and values also leads to mistrust among fellow team players and colleagues.

3. Alienation - Shrinking opportunities for the working class:

Weak democratic tradition leads to social disharmony and segregation of the society, people stop taking interest (and levels of motivation become dies) in their work because they have nothing at stake. They suppose that they are of no value neither would their voice change anything, these are all signs of a depressed nation.
It would be quite relevant here to quote what once was said by Dr. Mahbub ul Haq; that, “Economic growth is like wild horse; it needs to be trained to serve the real interests of the society. If the horse misbehaves in some societies, then the fault is not that of the horse but the skill of the rider. Economic growth is essential in poor societies - but even more important is its structure and distribution.”

In the end I would also quote what is said to be the Chinese formula of sustainable economic development, that, “Social Cohesion and Political Stability are pre-requisites for Sustainable Economic Development”

Peace
[right][snapback]575107[/snapback][/right]

"China has emerged as the global manufacturing hub whereas India has taken over the charge of technology and information"

HEy again, this part is rubbish. if india is in charge with teachnology and information, why china is ahead of india in every field?

also, without hardware, where u indian boasted about china has hardware (hardworking and also infrastructure) but india has sofeware (brain), then it doesnt make sense. firstly u need hardware for software to thrive (labs etc...) and also sofeware means brain, now technology is from the brains of a group of scientists right? now which country is more advance? china or india? technology information is directly links with technology. how stupid people can be?
think again, u need gd tech to build gd infractructure, otherwise things breaks down in a few years, also the infractructure aint going to be productive.
i think anyone got the results.

another indian joke article

gingerbeard

Jan 26 2005, 06:52 AM

QUOTE
India has a tremendous tendency for overstatement. I've made many presentations over the years in India. I've noticed that Indians don't take criticism well. They get very offended. Everybody feels they have to overstate the positives and understate the negatives.

I once gave a presentation to a group of senior managers attending the Advanced Management Program at Harvard Business School, and the Indian managers in the class were enraged although I made a very balanced presentation.

One point that ought to emerge from this interview is that India needs to learn to be more self-critical, more open, and much more honest about what needs to be done.

http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2004/dec/29inter.htm

Ajgir

Jan 26 2005, 09:52 AM

QUOTE(gingerbeardbastard @ Jan 26 2005, 06:44 AM)

"China has emerged as the global manufacturing hub whereas India has taken over the charge of technology and information"

HEy again, this part is rubbish. if india is in charge with teachnology and information, why china is ahead of india in every field?

also, without hardware, where u indian boasted about china has hardware (hardworking and also infrastructure) but india has sofeware (brain), then it doesnt make sense. firstly u need hardware for software to thrive (labs etc...) and also sofeware means brain, now technology is from the brains of a group of scientists right? now which country is more advance? china or india? technology information is directly links with technology. how stupid people can be?
think again, u need gd tech to build gd infractructure, otherwise things breaks down in a few years, also the infractructure aint going to be productive.
i think anyone got the results.

another indian joke article

[right][snapback]576048[/snapback][/right]

gingerbeardbastard

Why don’t you “Click” on the Link?

The Article is from one of the Premier Pakistani Publications.

You have a Problem? The take it up with the Nation – Write a Letter to the Editor or whatever – at the Pakistani Joke.

Best of Luck.

Peace

eachus

Jan 26 2005, 07:29 PM

QUOTE

Secrets behind the Chinese and Indian miracles

Recently it has been seen that India and China have emerged as two major and key players in the global economic arena, in fact both countries rival one another as the world’s most favorable destination for foreign direct investment.

China has emerged as the global manufacturing hub whereas India has taken over the charge of technology and information, ....

Well, I will say within 3 is a key player. you may say top 5 is ok.
but India is some where in 15 to 20, is it right? When China became
a net steel consumer from seller since 2000, the price of steel sky
rocked 2 to 3 times. When China said to cool down the overheat
economic, all prices of steel, coper, semen, alumium were free fall.
Today, US is the key player, EU is one, France nor Brit is a key player.

on FDI, China attracked over $60 billion as the winner in 2004, US
stood distance from China at ~$40B as #2. India is totally off in the
picture with $5 or $6B not even in top 20. Hei, #20 to fight the king?
you are not joking, are you?

Indians say lowend software outsource is IT. yes, I am ok. But
$12B of software export is called "has taken over the charge of IT"
should be over cooked it. The worlds IT revenue is larger than $1 trillion.
what percentage is $12B?

IDC: Worldwide IT spending to exceed $1 trillion in 2005
http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P2183

Krad

Jan 26 2005, 09:22 PM

QUOTE(eachus @ Jan 26 2005, 09:29 PM)

Well, I will say within 3 is a key player. you may say top 5 is ok.
but India is some where in 15 to 20, is it right? When China became
a net steel consumer from seller since 2000, the price of steel sky
rocked 2 to 3 times. When China said to cool down the overheat
economic, all prices of steel, coper, semen, alumium were free fall.
Today, US is the key player, EU is one, France nor Brit is a key player.

on FDI, China attracked over $60 billion as the winner in 2004, US
stood distance from China at ~$40B as #2. India is totally off in the
picture with $5 or $6B not even in top 20. Hei, #20 to fight the king?
you are not joking, are you?

Indians say lowend software outsource is IT. yes, I am ok. But
$12B of software export is called "has taken over the charge of IT"
should be over cooked it. The worlds IT revenue is larger than $1 trillion.
what percentage is $12B?

IDC: Worldwide IT spending to exceed $1 trillion in 2005
http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P2183
[right][snapback]576297[/snapback][/right]

There is some merit in what you have posted but you overlook some basic facts.

I suggest that you come to the fighter planes forum so we can discuss this...since my post would be deleted if i put it here.

fighter planes forum

Put it on the ideology section...you will need an ezboard account (free).

eachus

Jan 27 2005, 06:28 PM

QUOTE(Krad @ Jan 26 2005, 09:22 PM)

There is some merit in what you have posted but you overlook some basic facts.

I suggest that you come to the fighter planes forum so we can discuss this...since my post would be deleted if i put it here.

fighter planes forum

Put it on the ideology section...you will need an ezboard account (free).
[right][snapback]576327[/snapback][/right]

why dont you type in the facts here, rational message wont be deleted.
I dont want to go around to cut and post so many words.

Krad

Jan 27 2005, 08:02 PM

i have done so before...and i was labelled an indian and my post deleted. After so much time and effort spent...i was pretty pissed and I can see htings havent changed much at all.

Ajgir

Feb 3 2005, 08:28 AM

India-China strategic contacts

This refers to the news item "India, China to broaden strategic contacts" (Dawn, Jan 24). Understanding or even cooperation with India on strategic issues has been a long- standing plan of China and may not be taken as something of recent origin.

What follows below shows that China had wanted and hoped for triangular cooperation with Pakistan as the third party, but for some reasons this could not come about.

Therefore, for some time now, China has been going ahead on its own, increasing understanding with India in small measured steps leading to the present position between them with good prospects of further and deeper understanding to follow in economic, political and scientific fields.

From March 1971 to June 1975, I was the army and navy attache in Paris when owing to reasons of India's interference in East Pakistan I had frequent contact with the Chinese defence attache (Brigadier-General) Feng Wen, a veteran of the Long March.

We practically met once a week when sometimes he would pass me messages of a political nature, which I would forward to my administrative head in Islamabad. This particular message was given to me a little after Pakistan had recognized Bangladesh, and was repeated a number of times thereafter.

The message conveyed the hope that soon Pakistan and India would be able to improve their relations and resolve differences, which would be to the mutual benefit of all three.

Our discussions brought out the Chinese fears that continuing India-Pakistan friction would cause the US to fill the vacuum left by the British withdrawal from the Indian Ocean and would not be in the interest of Pakistan, India and China.

The intention did not appear to be to unite against the US but merely to achieve an understanding that would not provide the US any occasion to play one against the other. A close understanding would also provide scope for greater economic cooperation.

Recent world developments - particularly those that could affect the free flow of trade in the Indian Ocean and oil from the Gulf to China and India, increasing need of China for outsourcing to India, plus international terrorist threats and the need for steps to avoid a trade war in the Indian Ocean and Asean countries - have accelerated the process of establishing strategic understanding between the two countries with a view to avoiding frictions between them in the future.

VICE-ADMIRAL (retd) IQBAL F. QUADIR

Karachi

Santori

Feb 21 2005, 08:52 AM

QUOTE

China, India forming strategic ties

www.chinaview.cn 2005-02-18 08:12:19

BEIJING, Feb. 17 -- When Chinese Vice-Foreign Minister Wu Dawei and Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran, on behalf of their respective governments, sat together for a "strategic dialogue," the two countries were pushing their bilateral relations onto a new stage.

The world's two most populous nations have for a long time shown a willingness to shoulder more responsibility and play larger roles in the regional and international stages as their regional and international influence continuously surges.

The two-day strategic talks, held on January 24 in New Delhi, is aimed at broadening the scope of Sino-Indian relationship while providing both countries with a platform to exchange notes on regional and global issues of common concern.

Among the topics discussed were the issues of globalization, energy security, democratization of international relations, reform of the United Nations (UN), non-proliferation, anti-terrorism and the situation in Iraq and on the Korean Peninsula.

The two sides also briefed each other on their respective foreign and security policies and reached common ground on a wide range of issues.

The launching of the first ever "strategic dialogue" mechanism fully demonstrates that the two neighbours have already raised relations above a lingering and plaguing border dispute that once plunged their relationship into an icy period.

At this meeting of historical significance, both sides did not camouflage their strong desire to look beyond bilateral disputes and develop and upgrade ties in a global perspective.

Both countries stressed the importance of reforming international institutions, including the UN and its Security Council.

Both sides regarded the possibility of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) and sensitive technologies falling in the hands of terrorists as "a grave threat." And both recognized the importance of international co-operation instead of unilateral actions to combat penetrative global dangers.

Also, both sides basically reached an agreement on the next round of talks to be held in China on mutually agreed dates and necessary preparations for a visit to India by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao set for March, which is expected to mark a new phase in bilateral ties.

At the talks, the Chinese also expressed its understanding of the Indian wishes to pursue a permanent seat in the UN Security Council and supports India in playing a bigger role in the international arena.

The strategic dialogue is a key step forward in developing and deepening bilateral ties under the two neighbours' unambiguous strategy for a larger engagement with each other.

Beijing and New Delhi's repetition of their unequivocal stance that they advocate democratization of international relations and multi-polarity, is undoubtedly conducive to promoting a more democratic and peaceful international society that can more efficiently handle the challenge brought by globalization.

The flourishing bilateral relations in recent years have undoubtedly laid down a consolidated foundation for such a strategic dialogue mechanism between the two countries.

Since the 1962 border clash, which saw bilateral relations enter the abyss, Beijing and New Delhi had for many years made sluggish progress in the process of contacts and misgivings.

However, since the then Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee's visit to China in June 2003, during which the two countries vowed to promote a long-term constructive and co-operative partnership, compromised bilateral ties have been back on the way of rapid restoration and improvement.

The two countries have since then been engaged in discussions to resolve the lingering thorny boundary dispute, with special representatives holding several rounds of talks.

In economic fields, trade and investment are also booming, with total trade volume exceeding US$12 billion by November last year, according to the China General Administration of Customs. Co-operation in other fields, such as culture, tourism and sports, is also expanding.

Bilateral military relations, in particular, have been rapidly boosted in recent years.

Following the then Indian Defence Minister George Fernandes' visit to China in 2003, the two countries have conducted frequent military training exchanges and contacts.

Late that year, Indian naval ships paid a visit to Shanghai and held with the Chinese forces the first ever joint military exercises off the city.

That year, Wu Quanshu, deputy chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army of China, visited India.

Last year, Chinese Defence Minister and Vice-Chairman of the Central Military Commission Cao Gangchuan went to India.

And late last year, Indian Chief of Army Staff General NC Vij paid a week-long visit to China.

The visit to China by the highest-ranking Indian army official in a decade has added much mutual trust to bilateral military ties and injected new vitality into the overall Sino-Indian relations.

China and India have good reasons to discard past enmity and join hand-in-hand for the sake of themselves and others.

The world's two largest developing countries share a similar history and are both eager to rejuvenate themselves under a peaceful international and internal environment to become a more important actor in the international community.

Both countries have adopted an independent foreign policy and share common or similar views and stances on numerous major international issues.

Both are exploring and pursuing a development model suitable for their own national conditions.

More importantly, the two neighbours are economically complementary and can benefit much from making good use of each other's advantages.

Fully aware of a wide space for co-operation, the two countries have on many occasions reiterated their wishes to improve their ties at all levels and in all areas while addressing their outstanding differences, including the boundary dispute, in a negotiable, fair, reasonable and mutually satisfactory manner.

"We hope that, with India's co-operation, we will be able to solve the border issue so that bilateral ties will witness faster development on a new basis," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Kong Quan, said following the first round of strategic dialogue.

The stance was echoed by the Indian side.

"We are doing so in a purposive and mutually acceptable manner and we look at our relations in a larger regional and global backdrop," said Indian External Affairs Minister Netwar Singh on January 27 at the Seventh Asian Security Conference.

With their global clout increasing, the two countries have been conscious that consolidated mutual trust and co-operation between them serve as crucial elements that can make the region and the whole of Asia vibrant and energetic for growth.

And there is also an expanded consensus in the minds of decision- makers in Beijing and New Delhi that the two countries have enough space and opportunity in the region and beyond to develop and boost ties.

The establishment of the "strategic dialogue" mechanism shows the two neighbours have overcome the old mindset that two key regional players would inevitably compete and struggle for "scope of influence" and "geopolitical interests."

There are reasons to expect that the two Asian heavyweights will further advance the strong momentum of stable and sound good-neighbourly ties under a larger scope following the first strategic talks.

(Source: China Daily)

Xinhua

mushy

Feb 21 2005, 10:23 AM

QUOTE(eachus @ Jan 24 2005, 08:26 PM)

No, China wants Pakistan a lot more than India. US wanted Pakistan a lot more than India too. today is so, next decade is the same. As long as Mid-East still produce oil and Iran does not move its country location out of the area, Pakistan worth 2 times more than India. About the investment, China invested 5B in Pakistan in last 3 years, will do the same in the coming 3 years, maybe more.

That is probably because these countries can control Pakistan more than they can control India. Indian society has its own mind. It being democratic politicians are more worried about what people think than about what US or China think. Only if US and China could vote Indian politicians will listen to them.

One doesn't need to compare India and Pakistan in terms of investment by any country. India being seven times bigger has equivalently bigger market and hence needs larger investment. As an example say it takes $2B to setup a plant to manufacture 100,000 cars and $10B to setup a plant for 700,000 cars. So if Chinese companies decide to compete in both Pakistan and India in a given sector, they will have to invest much more to meet the market needs in India.

It is a mistake to argue mine is bigger than yours in economics. It is all driven by one thing and one thing alone - PROFITS.

mushy

Feb 21 2005, 10:28 AM

QUOTE(eachus @ Jan 26 2005, 07:29 PM)

Well, I will say within 3 is a key player. you may say top 5 is ok.
but India is some where in 15 to 20, is it right? When China became
a net steel consumer from seller since 2000, the price of steel sky
rocked 2 to 3 times. When China said to cool down the overheat
economic, all prices of steel, coper, semen, alumium were free fall.
Today, US is the key player, EU is one, France nor Brit is a key player.

on FDI, China attracked over $60 billion as the winner in 2004, US
stood distance from China at ~$40B as #2. India is totally off in the
picture with $5 or $6B not even in top 20. Hei, #20 to fight the king?
you are not joking, are you?

Indians say lowend software outsource is IT. yes, I am ok. But
$12B of software export is called "has taken over the charge of IT"
should be over cooked it. The worlds IT revenue is larger than $1 trillion.
what percentage is $12B?

IDC: Worldwide IT spending to exceed $1 trillion in 2005
http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P2183
[right][snapback]576297[/snapback][/right]

You also understand that IT is worlds largest industry today. So no one country or people can own all of it. I hope you understand that.

And no one considers software to be low tech. People consider textile to be low tech. Not software. It is heart of any equipment and has lions share of all IT expenses.

Sweatshopese

Feb 25 2005, 08:55 PM

About India's surplus in trade with China, I've got something to say.
One of my best friends took the job as steel ore dealer. It's well known that China is building its infrastructure at a soaring speed, which means a great need for steel.
China seldom exploit its own steel ore now, because of future concern. Most steel ore are imported from Brazil and India. India, these years, is beating Brazil to become China's No. 1 supplier of steel ore.
India is boasting of its software industry and other service sector. But India is not Hong Kong which is able to create a wealthy society by only service. As a huge country with a population of 1.3B, India could only become a real power only if it has a sound infrastructure and robust manufacturing industry.

switchblade

Feb 25 2005, 09:08 PM

QUOTE(bagbahadur @ Jan 21 2005, 11:45 AM)

Relationship between India & China is the most important factor
for Asia’s stability and security . It will dictate whether
Asia will be able to come out of US influence in future
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i hope we all russia china pa india can put our diff aside and work together towards a better future asia has great potential only if we could work to gether look at EU its hard to imagin that they r the same people who fought ww2. if they can do it so can we.

bhangeeIndian

Mar 4 2005, 07:14 PM

QUOTE(Sweatshopese @ Feb 25 2005, 08:55 PM)

About India's surplus in trade with China, I've got something to say.
One of my best friends took the job as steel ore dealer. It's well known that China is building its infrastructure at a soaring speed, which means a great need for steel.
China seldom exploit its own steel ore now, because of future concern. Most steel ore are imported from Brazil and India. India, these years, is beating Brazil to become China's No. 1 supplier of steel ore.
India is boasting of its software industry and other service sector. But India is not Hong Kong which is able to create a wealthy society by only service. As a huge country with a population of 1.3B, India could only become a real power only if it has a sound infrastructure and robust manufacturing industry.

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Well you are right infrastructure is what's soaring in China. But I disagree only manufacturing is going to take a country places. You see US companies playing a different game - Intellectual Property. Its true that China doesn't give much credit to IP because its not their biggest asset. But it is the biggest asset for USA. This is based on the fact that labor intensive industries will gradually migrate to the countries with lowest labor cost. Such industries will work for countries for large countries as China because of large labor pool available in the countries. But if standard of living of its people were to rise their has to be massive real wage "inflation". That would immediately nullify the cost advantage that Chinese manufacturing enjoys forcing the manufacturing to shift again to save cost.

So key to long term prosperity of any country is for the terms of trade to be skewed into its favor. Cost advantages only help to an extent. But to be among the richest country in the world one has to build and hold INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That's why you see US industry worried about just one thing - IP. An example, suppose Pfizer comes with a new cure for cancer. Chinese cost advantages in manufacturing are not going to help because Pfizer patents prevent Chinese companies from manufacturing it. Infact in the end Pfizer may very well outsource to multiple Chinese manufacturing companies at hugely competitive rate(drug manufacturing the wrong example for outsourcing manufacturing but you get the point). China gains because it generates more employment. But US gains as well because its citizens can focus on further research and inturn build more INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. So when a patient in the world buys the drug, the major percentage of that money goes to US - the share holders of Pfizer as profits and more importantly to the workers involved in research as salaries. Similarly for China. HOWEVER NOTE ONE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE - CHINESE WORKER GOT $1 PER HOUR WHILE AMERICAN WORKER GOT $400 PER HOUR. At macro economic level China being 3 times in population to US, Chinese GDP will have another thing working for them sheer size. But as long as differences in average wage persist US citizens will be much better off than Chinese. SO ONCE A COUNTRY IS OUT OF POVERTY AND UNEMPLOYMENT, WAGE DIFFERENTIAL ALONE CANNOT PROVIDE PROSPERITY. It is about selling each worker in the country at a highest price and not at lowest price. And as people can see in the above IP is almost 100% services.

So I wouldn't use China as a reference of economic success. US is much ahead and playing the game based on the constrains of USD 30,000 pa average income while China is playing by the rules for USD 1000 pa average income. I have yet to come across a projection which speaks about China beating USA in average income.

ahho

Mar 4 2005, 07:18 PM

QUOTE(puke @ Mar 4 2005, 06:14 PM)

Well you are right infrastructure is what's soaring in China. But I disagree only manufacturing is going to take a country places. You see US companies playing a different game - Intellectual Property. Its true that China doesn't give much credit to IP because its not their biggest asset. But it is the biggest asset for USA. This is based on the fact that labor intensive industries will gradually migrate to the countries with lowest labor cost. Such industries will work for countries for large countries as China because of large labor pool available in the countries. But if standard of living of its people were to rise their has to be massive real wage "inflation". That would immediately nullify the cost advantage that Chinese manufacturing enjoys forcing the manufacturing to shift again to save cost.

So key to long term prosperity of any country is for the terms of trade to be skewed into its favor. Cost advantages only help to an extent. But to be among the richest country in the world one has to build and hold INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That's why you see US industry worried about just one thing - IP. An example, suppose Pfizer comes with a new cure for cancer. Chinese cost advantages in manufacturing are not going to help because Pfizer patents prevent Chinese companies from manufacturing it. Infact in the end Pfizer may very well outsource to multiple Chinese manufacturing companies at hugely competitive rate(drug manufacturing the wrong example for outsourcing manufacturing but you get the point). China gains because it generates more employment. But US gains as well because its citizens can focus on further research and inturn build more INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. So when a patient in the world buys the drug, the major percentage of that money goes to US - the share holders of Pfizer as profits and more importantly to the workers involved in research as salaries. Similarly for China. HOWEVER NOTE ONE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE - CHINESE WORKER GOT $1 PER HOUR WHILE AMERICAN WORKER GOT $400 PER HOUR. At macro economic level China being 3 times in population to US, Chinese GDP will have another thing working for them sheer size. But as long as differences in average wage persist US citizens will be much better off than Chinese. SO ONCE A COUNTRY IS OUT OF POVERTY AND UNEMPLOYMENT, WAGE DIFFERENTIAL ALONE CANNOT PROVIDE PROSPERITY. It is about selling each worker in the country at a highest price and not at lowest price. And as people can see in the above IP is almost 100% services.

So I wouldn't use China as a reference of economic success. US is much ahead and playing the game based on the constrains of USD 30,000 pa average income while China is playing by the rules for USD 1000 pa average income. I have yet to come across a projection which speaks about China beating USA in average income.
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dude you can't use us dollar t ocompare, i can buy a 3 dollar beef noodle in canda or in the us and i can pay 3 yuan to get beef noodle in china, the cpi is totally different

bhangeeIndian

Mar 4 2005, 07:39 PM

QUOTE(ahho @ Mar 4 2005, 07:18 PM)

dude you can't use us dollar t ocompare, i can buy a 3 dollar beef noodle in canda or in the us and i can pay 3 yuan to get beef noodle in china, the cpi is totally different
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You are right we need to do the same using PPP. But don't expect China to overtake US even in per capita PPP. However PPP is difficult to correctly measure, hence USD GDP is used as first level approximation and later PPP is applied.

Sweatshopese

Mar 5 2005, 12:30 AM

QUOTE(puke @ Mar 5 2005, 09:14 AM)

Well you are right infrastructure is what's soaring in China. But I disagree only manufacturing is going to take a country places. You see US companies playing a different game - Intellectual Property. Its true that China doesn't give much credit to IP because its not their biggest asset. But it is the biggest asset for USA. This is based on the fact that labor intensive industries will gradually migrate to the countries with lowest labor cost. Such industries will work for countries for large countries as China because of large labor pool available in the countries. But if standard of living of its people were to rise their has to be massive real wage "inflation". That would immediately nullify the cost advantage that Chinese manufacturing enjoys forcing the manufacturing to shift again to save cost.

So key to long term prosperity of any country is for the terms of trade to be skewed into its favor. Cost advantages only help to an extent. But to be among the richest country in the world one has to build and hold INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That's why you see US industry worried about just one thing - IP. An example, suppose Pfizer comes with a new cure for cancer. Chinese cost advantages in manufacturing are not going to help because Pfizer patents prevent Chinese companies from manufacturing it. Infact in the end Pfizer may very well outsource to multiple Chinese manufacturing companies at hugely competitive rate(drug manufacturing the wrong example for outsourcing manufacturing but you get the point). China gains because it generates more employment. But US gains as well because its citizens can focus on further research and inturn build more INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. So when a patient in the world buys the drug, the major percentage of that money goes to US - the share holders of Pfizer as profits and more importantly to the workers involved in research as salaries. Similarly for China. HOWEVER NOTE ONE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE - CHINESE WORKER GOT $1 PER HOUR WHILE AMERICAN WORKER GOT $400 PER HOUR. At macro economic level China being 3 times in population to US, Chinese GDP will have another thing working for them sheer size. But as long as differences in average wage persist US citizens will be much better off than Chinese. SO ONCE A COUNTRY IS OUT OF POVERTY AND UNEMPLOYMENT, WAGE DIFFERENTIAL ALONE CANNOT PROVIDE PROSPERITY. It is about selling each worker in the country at a highest price and not at lowest price. And as people can see in the above IP is almost 100% services.

So I wouldn't use China as a reference of economic success. US is much ahead and playing the game based on the constrains of USD 30,000 pa average income while China is playing by the rules for USD 1000 pa average income. I have yet to come across a projection which speaks about China beating USA in average income.
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Have u got a baby, buddy?
Do you order your 1 month old baby to run as fast as Liu Xiang? If not, then we'd better expect less from the current China.
It's really disgusting that China is ruled by the Communist Party. Or else, China, including Taiwan would become world's No.1 superpower long ago. And there would be no need to quarrel about if India is doing better than China. But, on the other hand, isn't it impressing that the Chinese people create a long lasting economic miracle even under the dictatorship of communist? I've been always very proud of my intelligent and hardworking countrymen.